R. Wilde: Firstly, my congratulations on producing such an excellent book. Unholy War was released in the USA as The Popes Against the Jews. I felt that this latter title was a fairer and more accurate description of the book than Unholy War, which seems more provocative. What was the reason for the change, and which do you prefer?

D. Kertzer:. My original working title for the book was "An Uncomfortable Past", with the same subtitle ("The Vatican's Role in the Rise of Modern Anti-Semitism"). I wanted with this title to highlight the difficulty that the Vatican has had coming to terms with its active role in promulgating anti-Semitism throughout Europe in the decades preceding the Holocaust. However, both my publisher in the U.S. (Knopf) and other publishers in other countries thought this title too understated. Moreover, Knopf wanted a title where the subject of the book was made clear. I ended up proposing many titles, including both the one used by Knopf and the one used by Macmillan in Britain (The Unholy War). Alas, all have advantages and disadvantages.

Matching the advantage of the American title-its clarity of topic and ability to attract a potential reader's attention-is its rather confrontational and, in certain circles, inflammatory tone. The British title is less inflammatory, although it has the disadvantage of not making clear-without the subtitle-exactly what the subject of the book is. It is also true that the Church's battle against the Jews was not a war, nor was it, from the Church's perspective at the time, unholy. Quite the contrary, it was a holy battle, mandated by the most sacred teachings of the Church and canon law, holding that the Jews had been cursed by God and should forever live in degraded circumstances.

R. Wilde: Unholy War begins with an immediate piece of context, namely the report by the Vatican's Commission for Religious Relations with the Jews. Given that you have refuted the report's conclusions, do you feel that the commission was a waste of time, and would you like the matter re-appraised? Could you even see yourself on a future panel?

D. Kertzer: I agree that the research reported in my book effectively demolishes the thesis of the 1998 Vatican report on the Church's role in the rise of modern anti-Semitism and the Holocaust. I think it unfortunate that the report - "We Remember" - was issued, because now that this has become the official Vatican position, it becomes more difficult for the Church to embrace the historical truth. It is my hope, though, that through research such as mine increasing numbers of people in the Catholic world will come to rethink the Vatican position and ultimately Church leaders themselves will call for a new look at these issues. When this happens, I would be delighted to be part of a Vatican panel, although I am afraid that it is difficult to see anything like this happening any time soon.

R. Wilde: One point from your introduction is crucial for me: "Yet this is not a book about the battle of good against evil. The Church, whatever else it is, is a human institution..." (Kertzer, Unholy War, p. 12). Do you feel, like myself, that in many discussions of anti-Semitism and the Holocaust religious hatred, and its associated actions, are too easily described as 'good' and 'evil', obscuring the fact that people were responsible?

D. Kertzer: The topic of how religion can be used to generate hatred of another people is all too relevant following September 11. We need to recognize that people who believe they are motivated by the highest religious principles can do evil things in the name of these principles. We also need to see the risks that can arise in monotheistic religions where some people believe they have the exclusive knowledge of what God wants, and believe that those who are not part of their group are doing the work of the devil.

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For Citation And Footnotes
Title: Unholy War: An Interview with David Kertzer
Author: Robert Wilde
Date: 2002